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CELESTINA

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SURREALISM: You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.
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Newsvine Nomic: A Community Game Experiment

Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:10 PM EDT
games, politics, community, hofstadter, nomic, calvinball
By Celestina

Photo by Duncan Rawlinson. (License: Creative Commons Attribution)

Almost like being there...

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A Modest Proposal

At the first ever Vinemeet, I met my soon-to-be dear friend Mykola Bilokonsky. Somewhere amongst the discussions of Neil Gaiman and similes vs. metaphors and whether magic was real and copious amounts of booze, I brought up the game of Nomic. He wanted to play, I promised to set up an online game. Today, I am finally making good on that promise. And this is your invitation to join us.

Nomic...wha...?

Invented by Douglas Hofstadter (whom you should really read, if you haven't...seriously), Nomic is fairly simple in principle. You start with a set of rules, which are divided into two parts: mutable and immutable. Mutable rules require a unanimous vote to change for the first two rounds, and after that they require a simple majority. Immutable rules cannot be changed. To change a rule from immutable to mutable takes unanimous consent. The goal of the game is to win.

How Do You Win?

That depends on how you change the rules. Think Calvinball, but a little more devious. In the beginning, the way to win is to get the highest number of points, which is determined by

subtracting 291 from the ordinal number of your proposal and multipling the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)

Complete rules can be found here.

Of course, the conditions for winning can change...

This Is Kind Of Political, Isn't It?

Oh, yeah. You want to know how politics work? Watch this game. You really want to understand? Play.

I Have No Idea What You're Talking About, But I Like It...

Great. For this first game, I think we need to keep the number of players somewhat limited, just to keep it sort of comprehensible. So depending on the amount of interest, we will have either up to five individual players or five teams of players. If that goes well and there's continued interest, we'll expand the next game to more players. If you want to play just post below under the "Me! Me!" comment below.

In the actual game, everyone who is not playing but wants to comment will have a chance, with comment threads designated for the purpose of constructive advice or general jeering. Believe me, even if you are not playing, it's highly educational to watch (depending on how devious the players are...)

On the actual game thread, which I will put up as soon as it looks like all who are interested have signed up, the complete starting rules will be posted in the article body, and I will designate comment threads for each round, as well as one for spectators to comment after each round has finished. Players (or teams) will take turns proposing a rule change and adding points to their score. Simple enough?

Fantastic! Sign up below if you want to play.

Correction: for accuracy's sake, I must note that upon rereading "Metamagical Themas" by Douglas Hofstadter (which you all should totally read), he gives credit for the genesis of Nomic to Peter Suber, though Suber gives credit to Hofstadter for helping him refine the rules.

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

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Published to:

  • Celestina's Column
  • Groups: Heated Debate, Newsvine Community, Nomic, Psych, Soc, Philos
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (81)
Celestina

Me! Me! (sign up to play under this comment)

  • 8 votes
#1 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
Viki Babbles Gonia

I Have No Idea What You're Talking About, But I Like It...

Me! Me! I love signing up to do things that are completely beyond my realm of understanding!

  • 15 votes
#1.1 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:17 PM EDT
Mykola Bilokonsky

I'm still not entirely clear on how this is gonna work, but I am so there. I will win. :)

  • 11 votes
#1.2 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:20 PM EDT
kymlee

I'm still completely clueless as to what this game is, but I'm down to give it a try. :)

  • 10 votes
#1.3 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:19 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

Me! Me! I love signing up to do things that are completely beyond my realm of understanding!

Yeah I think the phrase "I Have No Idea What You're Talking About, But I Like It..." pretty much sums it up for me....but count me in anyway!

PS - C, answer your email...or....um.....I'll.....er......bug you to check it again later. :P

  • 8 votes
#1.4 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:55 PM EDT
Jared Kardos

I'll give this a shot. :D

  • 6 votes
#1.5 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:16 PM EDT
Djehuty

I'm keen, depending on timezones. So long as you play in your evenings (EST) I should be ok. How 'zat sound?

  • 9 votes
#1.6 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:50 PM EDT
oldfogey

Old people don't play games. If you let me in it better be serious.

  • 12 votes
#1.7 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:59 PM EDT
Viki Babbles Gonia

You mean, we have to be online at the same time?

I've got to read the rules, man.

  • 9 votes
#1.8 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:19 PM EDT
Djehuty

Nope but we have to be able to discuss things. And I assume that means chat or skype.

  • 9 votes
#1.9 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:24 PM EDT
Viki Babbles Gonia

Maybe I should read the rules when I haven't already downed two cocktails.

  • 9 votes
#1.10 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:39 PM EDT
Viki Babbles Gonia

I seriously might have to drop out this first round. The first paragraph of the rules got me banging my head against a wall.

  • 8 votes
#1.11 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:52 PM EDT
Celestina

Ah, stick around, Viki. I swear it's not as hard as it looks. Much trickier, but not nearly as hard.

  • 7 votes
#1.12 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:18 PM EDT
kymlee

Its all convoluted and complicated but it basically says the game is about changing the rules so that you have the advantage. Some rules can be changed and others can't. The majority of people have to agree in order for rules to change, so use the power of persuasion if you want the advantage.

The only thing I don't get is...what the hell are we making and changing the rules about?

  • 7 votes
#1.13 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:38 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

The only thing I don't get is...what the hell are we making and changing the rules about?

How people get points (or lose them) and what is needed to win the game.....and all the rules are changeable, just some need unanimous consent to put into a state where they can THEN be changed (or vice versa), so sometimes it's a one step process and sometimes a two step process (or more).....assuming I'm understanding correctly, which is debatable. Though I think my experience working with lawyers is helping me translate some of the more convoluted rules....I think.... heh

  • 8 votes
#1.14 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:42 PM EDT
kymlee

It does have a legalese character to it doesn't it?

  • 6 votes
#1.15 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:56 PM EDT
Tamh

Anyone who thinks it sounds interesting but is a little overwhelmed by the long list of rules should just jump in and play.

Ok, I was bamboozled by it this morning at 7am, but having read through the comments and seen all of the lovely people I might be able to persuade or be convinced by (is batting eyelashes an effective strategy?!), I'd like to have a go if it's not too late :)

  • 7 votes
#1.16 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:34 AM EDT
Celestina

'Course it's not too late! Welcome aboard, Tamh.

  • 5 votes
#1.17 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:46 AM EDT
prompt

Maybe I should read the rules when I haven't already downed two cocktails.

I keep reading the rules and forgetting them a few minutes later *cough cough*

  • 7 votes
#1.18 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
Viki Babbles Gonia

Well gawrsh. I wonder why that's happening, Jon? Do you have a short-term memory issue?

  • 5 votes
#1.19 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:07 PM EDT
Reply
Celestina

Questions or other comments? Add 'em anywhere below here.

  • 6 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

Who?What?Where?When?How?

  • 5 votes
#2.1 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:57 PM EDT
Celestina

Heh. Who is whomever signs up.
What is probably best answered by first going and looking over the Nomic rules.
Basically what happens is that everyone takes turns trying to alter the rules to their advantage. The tricky part is that you have to get others to sign off on their changes, which they won't unless it's to their advantage, too. Or unless you are very, very sneaky and manage to word rule changes in a way that slips in stuff you want without their noticing. So, for example, a rule change which proposes that all points you earn shall be doubled is never going to pass, but one which states that every player's points are doubled probably will...as long as everyone else forgets an earlier rule which defines "player" in a manner which only still applies to you. Get it?
Where is right here on my column, in a new article which will go up as soon as we have everyone signed up who wants to play.
When is starting in a couple of days (Sunday or Monday, depending on what works for everyone) and will stretch out until someone wins. There will be a comment thread for each round, and after all players have posted we will summarize what passed and what failed as far as rule changes and proceed to the next round.
How is with your computer and your brain, silly rabbit.
I'm so glad you didn't ask why...

  • 8 votes
#2.2 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:20 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

I'm so glad you didn't ask why...

I wouldn't expect you to have (or need) an answer to why...so I didn't bother asking :D

  • 5 votes
#2.3 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:40 PM EDT
oldfogey

What do I get if I win? Who will see that I get it? Where will it be delivered? When can I start changing rules? Why can't I change more than one rule at a time?

  • 8 votes
#2.4 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:05 PM EDT
Celestina

*chuckle*
Oh, yes, you really must play, oldfogey. I promise we will be terribly, terribly serious about it. I'll even wear my cloak and mask for the event, to lend the proper aura...

  • 4 votes
#2.5 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
Viki Babbles Gonia

What do I get if I win?

A t-shirt, silly!

Who will see that I get it?

Why Celestina will surely send it to you right after she sends out the t-shirt prizes from the 1st NDC, which took place 18 MONTHS AGO!!!!

:p

  • 8 votes
#2.6 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:20 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

I'll even wear my cloak and mask for the event, to lend the proper aura...

Well @!$%#, I might have to wear my big fuzzy hat to balance out the seriousness of the matter!

  • 8 votes
#2.7 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:23 PM EDT
Reply
Tamh

Sounds super and I am going to watch the first game to get some bearings on it all :)

  • 10 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:18 PM EDT
Angel_C

Me too, I'm a watcher first. :-D

  • 7 votes
#3.1 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:26 PM EDT
oldfogey

I will wait, watch or wonder why I can't be in the first round. I say let's change the rule that says only 5 can play. If there is no such rule let's make one, number it 2,000, and allow as many rules to be grouped as anyone desires.

  • 10 votes
#3.2 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:07 PM EDT
Djehuty

{awed}

  • 8 votes
#3.3 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:09 PM EDT
Celestina

truly.

  • 7 votes
#3.4 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
oldfogey

If you guys are truly awed why didn 't you vote me uparrows?

  • 10 votes
#3.5 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:37 PM EDT
Djehuty

Hey, I don't want you getting complacent. Plus those arrows aren't cheap you know.

  • 10 votes
#3.6 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
yasmin

I think I'll watch too.

I can read the rules, but I won't get them. Watching by example on the other hand just might get me through.

  • 8 votes
#3.7 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:38 PM EDT
Reply
prompt

I think I'm interested. I just don't understand yet.

  • 9 votes
Reply#4 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:19 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

I don't think understanding is not a prerequisite for involvement...or if it is, I may be in trouble. ;)

  • 7 votes
#4.1 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:44 PM EDT
Celestina

All you really have to understand to start out is that the way you play the game is to change the rules. It's a little overwhelming when you first look at the list, but if you just plunge into it, it becomes more comprehensible pretty quickly. One of the first rules to get changed, for example, is often the rule about how rules are passed, to make it easier. Also, the conditions for winning can be changed at any time, so often if one person is getting too close to winning the other players will elect to change the winning conditions. Like that. *grin*

Anyone who thinks it sounds interesting but is a little overwhelmed by the long list of rules should just jump in and play. Remember that everyone else is new, too. Except for me.

  • 9 votes
#4.2 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:17 PM EDT
kymlee

I think I get it...

::evil grin::

  • 9 votes
#4.3 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:40 PM EDT
Reply
Brad Leclerc

I'd just like to officially mention that April, my wife of less than a week, has decided not to leave me, despite taking part in this insanity....it was rough going there for a minute though ;). I didn't even finish describing how the game works (or starts out working at least) and she got this look on her face. You know the one. The "I'm sorry but you seem to be growing an extra head, and might want to get that checked out by a doctor" look.

She'll come around once she sees it in action I think though....maybe......though just to be safe, if I randomly disappear during the game, if someone could come make sure I'm alive, that would be great :D

  • 9 votes
Reply#5 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:35 AM EDT
kymlee

Congratulations Brad! :D

  • 6 votes
#5.1 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:08 AM EDT
Tamh

Hey, you got married!! Amazing!! That's fantastic! big hugs to you both and congrats as well :D

  • 5 votes
#5.2 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:30 AM EDT
Brad Leclerc

Thanks. It's especially nice now that I THINK I'm safe from harm on this occasion.......still a bit iffy, she looks at me funny when I mention this game being a source of intrigue to me. But oh well! :D

  • 8 votes
#5.3 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:58 AM EDT
Celestina

She'll come around once she sees it in action I think though....maybe......

Er...well...possibly? Unless the winning conditions wind up getting really weird. ;)

  • 5 votes
#5.4 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:49 AM EDT
yasmin

Brad?!? Oh my gosh, CONGRATS!

  • 4 votes
#5.5 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
Reply
sushicat

I think I just want to watch..... sounds interesting.

  • 7 votes
Reply#6 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:20 AM EDT
Orlando Dozier

Now that my head has stop spinning from trying to understand this game, count me in if it's not to late.

  • 4 votes
Reply#7 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:16 PM EDT
Celestina

Yay! Glad you're going to join us, Orlando.
I reckon I'll leave this thread open until tomorrow morning, at which point we will have our group of participants. As of right now, looks like we have 10-11 people playing, meaning we are going to have to have teams (and to think I wasn't sure if I could get even five players...silly me). Everyone check in tomorrow noon-ish to get teams sorted out, and then we can start the game tomorrow afternoon or Sunday morning, if that works for everyone.

List of Players (please correct me if I missed anyone):
Viki
Myk
Kym
Brad
Jared
Djehuty
oldfogey
Tamh
Orlando
prompt? (did you decide?)
and me.

Thinking about communication and debate, it occurs to me that we are really going to need a way to sort out each round, as well as having a place for discussion amongst players of each proposed rule change. My thought is that each round will be marked with a post, and each rule proposal should be under that posting in it's own comment thread for discussion purposes, which will wrap up with a vote to decide whether it's adopted. Then it's the next player's turn. Does that make sense?

After each round, another comment thread will be started for watchers to comment and discuss.

  • 6 votes
#7.1 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
prompt

Sure, why not. However, over the next week I'll be fairly busy. After that I'm all yours :)

  • 1 vote
#7.2 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:58 PM EDT
Viki Babbles Gonia

Seeing as it's Saturday afternoon right now, and I'm about to get ready for work and then out to play all night, I don't think I'll be available now, nor will I be functioning in the morning.

But I'll keep an eye on things here and see what happens and when it's going to happen.

  • 1 vote
#7.3 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:09 PM EDT
Reply
fugitive247

I want so badly to participate, but this will have to wait until (hopefully) a future game. Right now gestational timeline in conjunction with this being a high-risk pregnancy take precedence. I'd hate to be forced to bail from this experiment due to circumstances. However, I will be paying close attention!

  • 5 votes
Reply#8 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:36 PM EDT
Celestina

Well, if this goes well I am certainly willing to host other games in the future.
Congrats on the baby! We'll keep our fingers crossed for you.

  • 3 votes
#8.1 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

Well, if this goes well I am certainly willing to host other games in the future.

That should be even more true if it goes horribly out of control...cause that's always fun to watch lol

  • 4 votes
#8.2 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:48 PM EDT
fugitive247

Celestina @ #7.1

After each round, another comment thread will be started for watchers to comment and discuss

**Muahahahaha**

  • 6 votes
#8.3 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:26 PM EDT
Djehuty

Good luck, fugitive :)

  • 3 votes
#8.4 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:48 PM EDT
fugitive247

Thanks, Celestina and Djehuty. 4.5 months down... 4.5 left to go!

  • 2 votes
#8.5 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:02 PM EDT
Reply
Celestina

OK, so I picked back up my book, and realized I had been mistaken about the origin of Nomic. Correction noted in the article.

  • 1 vote
Reply#9 - Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:29 PM EDT
Celestina

All right...it's now noon-ish, and I am closing the sign up. I'm still not sure if prompt is in or out, but if he's in we have five teams, four of which will have two players and one which will have three (which could be both an advantage and disadvantage). Feel free to pick teams, or I can just assign them if that would be easier.

I'm going to be out this evening, so we can't start then, and I'm not a morning person by any leap of the imagination, so...tomorrow evening or Monday morning (meaning sometime before noon) work better to start?

  • 3 votes
Reply#10 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:05 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

So long as it's not monday evening....you're busy ;)

  • 1 vote
#10.1 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:36 PM EDT
kymlee

Tomorrow evening is fine.

I think you should pick the teams.

  • 2 votes
#10.2 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:47 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

I think you should pick the teams.

I agree....more interesting that way.

  • 3 votes
#10.3 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:50 PM EDT
Orlando Dozier

Throw are names in a hat, mix and pick :) Tomorrow evening is good for me.

  • 2 votes
#10.4 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:09 PM EDT
Celestina

OK, then. Teams (as picked randomly by dropping a bunch of bits of paper in my skirt and grabbing them at random):

#1: Djehuty and prompt
#2: oldfogey and me
#3: Tamh and Jared
#4: Orlando and Viki
$5: Myk, Brad, and Kym

Feel free to pick team names, make mascots, etc. Please, everyone who is playing just leave a note confirming you are in.
The game thread will begin tomorrow evening, around 6-ish EST, with the team order being chosen randomly. This isn't the kind of thing you need to be on for every second, but do check in regularly to make sure you take your turn and cast your votes. Unless it really starts to drag, I'm not going to make time limits or anything for each round. We can play it out over several days and really think about it, which will produce a better result than just trying to rush headlong through each round. Sound good?

  • 2 votes
#10.5 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
Jared Kardos

Sound good?

Fine with me. :)

  • 2 votes
#10.6 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:08 PM EDT
Mykola Bilokonsky

But our team has the dolla sign. ;)

  • 2 votes
#10.7 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:15 PM EDT
Celestina

*chuckle* That's what I get for trying to post before 3pm.
I can only hope it's not a sign of latent precognition.

  • 2 votes
#10.8 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:25 PM EDT
Brad Leclerc

But our team has the dolla sign. ;)

The mind games start already!

  • 3 votes
#10.9 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
Viki Babbles Gonia

I'm working tomorrow until about 8:30, so I won't be around until then.

  • 2 votes
#10.10 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:11 PM EDT
kymlee

But our team has the dolla sign. ;)

w00t!

  • 1 vote
#10.11 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:57 PM EDT
Tamh

I'll be walking out the door to work on a Monday morning when you start, so not sure how that's going to pan out....

I probably won't get to my computer until midnight your time

any ideas?

Perhaps Jared would be better to join up with one of the 3-team?

  • 1 vote
#10.12 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
prompt

As a student will Djehuty be sleeping in until noon?

  • 1 vote
#10.13 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:31 PM EDT
Djehuty

As a student with children I will not. In fact this is the semester break so the timing is perfect.

  • 1 vote
#10.14 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
Reply
oldfogey

I see our team has them skunked from the beginning.

  • 5 votes
Reply#11 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:33 PM EDT
Celestina

natch.

  • 2 votes
#11.1 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:25 PM EDT
Reply
prompt

Sweet for me, although I will be at my cottage tomorrow so am not sure if I'll be back by 6PM. Hopefully I will be, and if I'm not it will be within a few hours anyways.

  • 3 votes
Reply#12 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:02 PM EDT
Djehuty

This should work, Jon. I have your chat address I think.

  • 2 votes
#12.1 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:31 PM EDT
prompt

Oh beautiful. I do think I have you on chat, although I've yet to see you on there.

  • 2 votes
#12.2 - Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:32 PM EDT
Reply
ffeineandsugar

SPACE FOR RENT
INQUIRE WITHIN
NOMIC KETCHUP
SPAM SPAM EGG

    Reply#13 - Sat Aug 9, 2008 10:23 PM EDT
    Celestina

    igloo.

      #13.1 - Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:40 AM EDT
      ffeineandsugar

      Does that rhyme??

        #13.2 - Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:07 AM EDT
        Reply
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